Talk-show host Jimmy Kimmel decided to go after plumbers in comments aimed at new DHS head Markwayne Mullin, prompting pushback from Editors guests on today’s episode.

“What is absolutely toxic culturally,” says Charlie, “is the snobbery you’re seeing on display against Markwayne Mullin. Now I’m not a fan of Markwayne Mullin politically necessarily, but to claim that there is something less impressive about building a successful business than going to college is terrible.”

Charlie says this view “is the fast track to a two-tier society in which credentials are the key to acceptance. And I reject it. I think there are so many different ways of proving yourself to be a full and worthwhile member of society. Being a stay-at-home mother, working for a charity, serving in the military, forming or working in a business. And yes, academia, there’s nothing wrong with it. I went through it. But I hate this.”

Michael takes the theme further, reminding listeners that “civic engineering around sewer systems and plumbers are the reason your relatives aren’t dying of shigellosis, dysentery, cholera, typhoid fever, hepatitis A, or in tropical climates, malaria.”

“We should get rid of Presidents’ Day and have Civil Engineering Day and Plumbers Day, because these people do more to preserve civilization than the politicians do,” says Michael.

“Honestly, civil engineers make cities of tens of millions of people habitable by humans. Without them, without their expertise, cities of that size would be death traps and civilization would be impossible. So you are crazy to look down on this. This is the No. 1 thing you would miss if it were gone.”

The Editors podcast is recorded on Tuesdays and Fridays every week and is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

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