The following is a lightly edited transcript of the October 31 episode of The Daily Blast podcast. Listen to it here.

Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.

Donald Trump very well could still win this presidential race, but he and his allies are suddenly pointing fingers of blame at others in case of a potential loss. Trump is reportedly angry with Republican National Committee Chair Michael Whatley, he’s raging about supposed voter fraud in Pennsylvania, and perhaps most important, his allies are sounding new alarms about the ground game in key swing states. All this comes as new polls show a problem for Trump. While the race is still unquestionably tied, those surveys show that more engaged voters are tilting toward Kamala Harris, which means more pressure on Trump’s ground operation to turn out low-propensity voters. And if that operation isn’t up to snuff, that’s a potential issue for him. Today, we’re discussing all this with Joel Payne, a senior official at MoveOn. He’s going to help us understand what’s really happening with both campaigns’ ground games and talk about an innovative new technique Democrats are using. Welcome Joel.

Joel Payne: Greg, thanks so much for having me. Good to be with you.

Sargent: Axios reports that Trump has privately blamed RNC chair Michael Whatley for dropping the ball on supposed election integrity issues, which means he fears a loss. Trump is baselessly claiming on social media that Pennsylvania is already cheating on a large scale. He’s worried about the state. Republican National Committee is suing Bucks County in Pennsylvania. Clearly the RNC is feeling big-time pressure from Trump to find voter fraud so he can lay the groundwork now to contest the potential loss. Joel, how worried should we be about this? Are Democrats going to be ready for post-election litigation?

Payne: Well, Greg, your analysis is right. It’s really clear that the Trump campaign and his allies are concerned because Kamala Harris is running a much stronger campaign. She’s closing stronger than he is. They are setting up a predicate to challenge the results of the election, regardless of however many baseless claims they may try to come up with. There’s something to be concerned with in terms of making sure that the public understands what’s happening here. What’s helpful is that they’re doing it out in public and that they’ve road tested the strategy before. It’s easier after 2016 and 2020 to understand what Trump’s MO is here, but we need to keep voters vigilant and help them understand what they’re hearing. It’s very likely that whatever happens on election night, Donald Trump is going to claim that he wins regardless of the data.

Sargent: They certainly have road tested it in the past, with a violent attack on the U.S. Capitol. There’s an irony to all this as well. Axios reports that the RNC is putting a bigger priority on “election integrity issues” than on the ground game. A lot of that, the ground game, has been outsourced to Elon Musk’s PAC. WIRED Magazine now reports that in Michigan, the GOP is largely winging it with its ground operation, leading to some panic. One Trump-world source describes the Musk operation as a bunch of grifters. Joel, this comes after Cameron Joseph reported that despite $75 million that Musk pumped into America PAC, his PAC to fund the ground game, Republicans privately fear this could be swamped by the ground operation from Harris. Can I ask candidly, what are you guys seeing out there on the ground? We’re getting some mixed signals. Can you clear it up for us?

Payne: You mentioned Elon Musk, let’s not leave out Charlie Kirk. He’s the other Republican ace in the hole. That’s Donald Trump’s dream team that’s going to help him organize the electorate. I certainly would rather have the folks on the Democratic side, the David Plouffes and the Jen O’Malley Dillons, who are experienced, well-respected organizers than the folks that Trump have. But we also know that Donald Trump was able to win an election in 2016 with virtually no ground game. While I’m certainly happy with our team compared to their team, we still would be mistaken to drop our guard.

In terms of what we’re seeing out there, there is no doubt, from a MoveOn perspective, and we know [from] a lot of our partners in the progressive space, after Kamala Harris became the top of the ticket, that was the shot in the arm that a lot of organizations on the left needed. President Biden: very well respected, did a great job as president, but his message politically was not resonating. Kamala Harris gave us a second look, not just with the Democratic base but with low-propensity voters, folks that will need to turn out to keep that anti-Trump coalition together.

So things are looking better. We’ve got to finish strong. We’ve got to get people out knocking doors. That’s why, at MoveOn, we’re so excited about some of the work that we’re doing with our community-based relational organizing with partners like Vote Rev, who are helping to make sure that we’re not only doing this community-based organizing but we’re doing it with the advantage of really smart behavioral science behind it as well.

Sargent: I want to get to that in a minute. You raise an interesting point there, which is that in 2016 Trump really did win, not nationally, but in the swing states—[in] enough swing states to win through........

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