President Donald Trump announced that the US would intervene to end the civil war in Sudan. This promise came at the request of the Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman. The conflict in Sudan — which has been marked by serious human rights abuses by both sides — recently reached a turning point. The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) took control of the town of El Fasher, effectively splitting the country in half between the paramilitary group and the Sudanese military.

At the heart of this brutal conflict is the relationship between two men: the leader of the Sudanese military, General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, and the head of the Rapid Support Forces (RSF), Muhammad Hamdan Dagano Musa, also known as Hemedti.

To better understand the conflict, Today, Explained host Noel King spoke with Alex DeWaal, the executive director of the World Peace Foundation at Tufts. Dewaal has been studying Sudan for over 40 years. He says the two leaders are a product of the cycle of violence that has embroiled the country for decades. The conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to Today, Explained wherever you get podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Pandora, and Spotify.

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