In our fourth Slate Plus bonus episode from Slow Burn Season 10, host Josh Levin talks with Ian McCaleb, who worked for CNN in the late ‘90s and early 2000s—then left to become a producer at Fox News. In this exclusive conversation for Slate Plus members, McCaleb explains what it was like to work for these fierce rivals, how Fox broke news, and how he handled it when Fox News got a story wrong.

Slate Plus members can listen to an audio version of this conversation. To learn about the challengers who took on Fox in the public eye, listen to Episode 5, “Ludacris Has Been Fired.” By joining Slate Plus, not only will you unlock exclusive Slow Burn episodes, but you’ll also access ad-free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Visit slate.com/slowburnplus to get access wherever you listen.

Hello and welcome to this Slate Plus bonus episode for Slow Burn Season 10: The Rise of Fox News. I’m Josh Levin.

We’re now five episodes into our season, and you’ve already heard from a bunch of former Fox News staffers. Now, we’re going to introduce you to another: producer Ian McCaleb, who covered the Department of Justice and the Pentagon for Fox from 2002 to 2008.

Ian was an accomplished journalist before he got to Fox. He started out as a reporter for the UPI wire service, before moving on to McClatchy and Congressional Quarterly. Then in 1999, he got a job at CNN in Washington D.C.

Ian McCaleb: This is the top of the mountain man. I think as somebody who aspires to go into reporting. It was really the place you wanted to be. I came to CNN as an editor slash reporter slash correspondent for an outfit that was then known as All Politics, which was sort of experimental, had been founded by CNN and Time Magazine.

Josh Levin: What was CNN like just as a workplace?

McCaleb: It was like any other large journalistic organization. You know, there were layers of approval. We had an editorial layer or two in DC. That would run through another two layers or maybe three in Atlanta before something would hit online. If broadcast were to pull from some of our material, then you’re talking about another layer of approval. So it was a long process, but that changed after the Time Warner merger.

Levin: So what happened with the merger?

McCaleb: It was a bit of a bloodletting. A lot of high level editors, and even founding editors, were shown the door, were given buyouts. It was just a massive, massive staff change. The worry for me and I think the worry for my colleague who was left was, you know, we’ve got to run what was a 12 person operation, as two people. But anybody who has worked in journalism, for any period of years, knows that it’s never secure. You have to learn to grow an eye in the back of your head.
Sooner or later the scythe may swing for you. The thing that eventually sort of broke my back at CNN was the lack of job security. There was always a sense that this could come to an end. Frankly, nobody wants to operate under those daily conditions. It was always sort of imminent, we turned the apple cart upside down once, we’ll do it again if we have to, nobody here is safe, you’re not particularly valued. I mean, that really was the message.

Levin: Could you feel Fox just starting to rattle CNN or get under the skin of folks?

McCaleb: I can look back on that now and understand that Fox was encroaching. We saw them as competition, but more of the sort of upstart variety. It’s like, oh, these guys are kind of nipping at our heels. They felt a bit amateurish from a distance. I’ll say that.

Levin: So you get a phone call from Fox News what’s your, like, first kind of gut reaction?

McCaleb: I was skeptical, for sure. How professional are these guys? Are there fail safe layers? How tight is the editorial run? You know, I just wanted to be sure I was getting into something that was legit and safe.

Levin: Can you tell the story of walking out with Greta Van Susteren?

McCaleb: Oh, yeah. I knew Greta was leaving CNN. She and I didn’t interact all that much while we were there, but we both left on the same day, both with one box in our arms, out into the parking garage, so if, if you know the CNN Bureau in D. C., you sort of have to leave through the front door, cross over, and then go into the parking garage, the adjacent office building, and take the elevator down, and she and I looked at each other.
And both realized where we were going at the same time and had a laugh about it. The conversation between the two of us........

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