The following is a lightly edited transcript of the November 20 episode of the
Daily Blast podcast. Listen to it here.

Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.

According to new reports, Republican senators are privately telling Donald Trump that they believe Matt Gaetz has little chance of being confirmed. And as Politico puts it, they’re hoping Trump doesn’t make them “walk the plank.” This seems to mean they don’t want to have to make the decision one way or the other, because it might mean bucking tremendous pressure from Trump to do what he wants. All this suggests something sobering.

It’s becoming very clear that one of the only bulwarks we’re going to have against an authoritarian Trump second term is going to be the GOP Senate. I’ve got to say, this doesn’t inspire much confidence. Today, we’re chatting with writer Jill Lawrence, who has a new piece for The Bulwark arguing that Trump is in effect putting together a “team of outlaws” to run the new administration, and if the GOP Senate doesn’t stop this, it’s really unclear what happens then. Good to have you back on, Jill.

Jill Lawrence: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.

Sargent: The Politico piece is pretty alarming, although I don’t think GOP senators intended it to be. Many of them are telling Trump and his people that they don’t want to vote for Matt Gaetz. But instead of this leading Trumpworld to conclude that maybe Gaetz is a bad idea, Trump seems to want the fight. When Republican senators say they don’t want to “walk the plank,” what they really mean is they don’t want to be in a position to do what Trump doesn’t want them to do. What do you make of this, Jill?

Lawrence: One thing that is depressing to me is that we’re only talking about Matt Gaetz. If you look at some of the other nominees, they are almost more cosmically dangerous, literally life-and-death dangerous. Matt Gaetz is very dangerous to the rule of law. He’s incredibly flawed.

It’s very difficult to take on Trump. It’s very dangerous, even physically, legally. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble if you cross Trump and MAGA and his allies. Trump has all kinds of mythology grown up around him: the two assassination attempts; sent by God. There’s just a lot going on that can reach people who might have guns and who might be disturbed, who might make threats.

Mitt Romney actually said this in a piece; he told a journalist he’s spending huge amounts of money to keep his family safe after taking on Trump, voting to convict him in an impeachment trial. This is what these people are up against. Most of them don’t have the money that Mitt Romney has. They get terrified when people call their wives and threaten their wives’ lives. It’s just beyond the pale.

Sargent: We’re going to see a lot of that. In your piece, you write that a willingness to bend or break laws is what Trump actively wants in his selections for his administration. They’re not even disguising it. Trump believes that Gaetz is just the person to “fix the Justice Department.” Nobody even points out that Trump has no affirmative vision for fixing DOJ beyond canceling prosecutions of himself and turning DOJ loose on his enemies. How is it possible that anyone, anywhere would credulously accept that Trump has some sense of how he wants to fix DOJ?

Lawrence: When he says he wants to........

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