No, you’re not being hyperbolic if you say MAGA is a fascist movement. You're just being accurate. That was one of the biggest points made by NYU historian Ruth Ben-Ghiat, author of the book "Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present," during our recent "Salon Talks" conversation.

Ben-Ghiat explained that Donald Trump is leading a “right-wing counterrevolution against the loss of white male privilege,” aimed at taking America back to the time when women, nonwhite people and non-Christians “knew their place.”

But what truly defines MAGA as fascist, Ben-Ghiat said — rather than just right-wing — is its use of violence. “Fascists believe that violence is the way to change history,” she told me. We saw that clearly enough on Jan. 6, 2021, with the attack on the Capitol mean to keep Trump in power despite his loss in the 2020 election.

What is most worrisome going forward, Ben-Ghiat suggested, is Trump’s defense of the Jan. 6 attackers as “hostages” and his promises to pardon them, which seek to change "the perception of violence." Trump’s message to his loyal followers, she said, is that “violence is sometimes morally necessary and even righteous, and even patriotic.” That, she added, is “what we call sacralizing violence, giving violence a kind of ritual, religious tone.”

Ben-Ghiat sees Trump’s promise to pardon the Jan. 6 insurrectionists as intended to inspire his supporters to commit future acts of violence if that can help him win. The implied promise is that if they commit violent acts and Trump regains the White House, he'll pardon them too. That's straight out of the autocrat's playbook, Ben-Ghiat says: "All authoritarians use pardons” and manipulate the justice system to maintain power.

Ben-Ghiat says she's not trying to scare us, only to prepare us for what we're likely to see between now and November — and for a good while after that if Trump wins. Too many Americans still don't believe, Ben-Ghiat warns, that "it can happen here" — "it" being a fascist takeover. History tells us those people are wrong.

Watch my full conversation with Ruth Ben-Ghiat here or read a transcript of our conversation below, edited for length and clarity.

You’ve been discussing and studying this issue for years, but it seems even more important than ever to talk about authoritarianism.

It's incredible that it could be upon us. Here's Trump saying he's going to be a "dictator for day one," but we know that they're never dictators for day one. They never relinquish their powers, so it's extremely important to understand what we're up against.

Despite Trump saying he wants to be a dictator and facing 91 felony counts for his attempted coup, the GOP base and millions of Americans still love him. What do you take from that?

Sadly, in history, when these charismatic demagogues come to power, they use emotions to manipulate people. Trump says, "I love you" to his people. He told them he loved them on Jan. 6. He builds a personality cult so he poses as the victim, which is really important because not only are all his crimes presented as persecutions by the "deep state," but saying he's being persecuted makes his followers feel protective of him.

You have quotes from MAGA people saying, "Oh, it's so distressing. We have to be there for him." That's what Jan. 6 was. It was many things. It was a violent coup attempt. But he was a leader in distress and he called on people, he brought them to the rally and they responded. They were trying to rescue him. This happens in history. I have quotes in “Strongmen” with people, actual fascists sitting in jail in 1945, where they're like, "Oh, I was completely magnetized by Mussolini. I didn't realize what was going on." So that's how I see it.

Is history warning us about the fact that Trump has not been held accountable by the system? There was such a long delay in investigating him. He's finally charged and now he's using his lawyers to manipulate the system to keep him on the ballot, and maybe not have any of the serious criminal trials before Election Day.

It's very disheartening, and no one is going to save the American people. My mantra has always been, "Never underestimate the American people." We had the Women's March, we had Black Lives Matter. These were the largest protests in history, and they led to electoral [change] in the midterms in 2018 and 2022.

We've got to do it. We can't depend on our institutions, which is very sad in a democracy. But our democracy has been so damaged, including the Supreme Court with Justice Thomas who wouldn't recuse himself. There's a whole attempt to delegitimize democracy, and not just Joe Biden, but the whole system. So we have to do this from the ground up.

Related

From an academic point of view, is MAGA an authoritarian movement? Is it a fascist movement? Where does it fall?

It's pretty fascist.

Why?

The reason I wrote “Strongmen” was to have this 100-year history of authoritarianism, almost all right-wing, because that's my specialty. Obviously communists had a higher body count than fascism, so I could have put them in there, but for narrative and other reasons, I focus on the right wing. Fascism was the first stage of authoritarianism, but it continued in different forms, like the........

© Salon